INDIVIDUALITY & UNIVERSALITY; Pt 2: Come Home to the Body

"How can I trust my body’s wisdom over my mind’s story?"

In the internal world, we have to learn how to experience life, which is dependent on whether we're resisting our experience--or not resisting it.

PROLOGUE:

In part one, we heard how Matthew Hara, as a sensitive soul, moved from addiction to awakening.

In part two, we explore the nature of the mind, the illusion of separation and how identification with the mind leads to suffering. We learn how presence, non-resistance and practices like yoga ultimately reconnect us to truth, to our heart and to embodied presence.

Enjoy this nourishing We Be The Change podcast transcript of our conversation about the mystical nature of being in the body without identification with the mind, with Matthew Hara and host Colleen Akiko, titled, "Come Home to the Body."

To HEAR this conversation on the podcast, search for "We Be The Change" on your favorite platform, or click HERE.

Matthew Hara shares simple, profound and practical truths about the wisdom present for us in and through our bodies.

“It was amazing to me to start to learn about what this mind is and how it affects us, and why it's ruling us, and why that makes us suffer. And it comes down, actually, to our identifications. The baseline of why we suffer is any moment we identify with the mind's interpretation."

Colleen:  I'm so glad you brought up the mind because when you even mentioned the mind earlier, I felt like--there's a stopping place there, the mind . . . because that can be a big scoop that a lot gets lumped into. And maybe it all belongs.

And then we hear about the ego and it gets confusing, and the mind starts trying to figure out the mind.

We need the mind, I need the mind to figure out how to make a morning smoothie, drive the car. So, we're not talking about that mind.  We're talking about something a little different. Can you break that down for us--from your perspective?

Understanding the Mind and Consciousness

Matthew: Yeah, I'll do my best. I think for me, the key way of explaining it is--The Mind: the contents of the universal mind; it's like an operating system and we're all tuned into it, whether we like it or not.  And when we get mixed up in it, we really start to have identification with it.  

My  mind, my thoughts, my this or that, is actually when you start to isolate yourself. And that's actually a cutoff from truth, because in reality everything is sharing everything all at once.

So for me, going to India and why I went back every year for 17 years is because the masters, the teachers over there, they're very clear about the mind. They've been studying it for thousands of years.

That was amazing to me to start to learn about what this mind is, and how it affects us, and why it's ruling us, and why that makes us suffer. And it comes down actually, to our identifications. One of the first big experiences I had in India was I was literally taken into such a space where I could see my own mind working for the first time, with a big gap in between it.

I could see that I was not the mind; that the mind was thinking and working automatically.  

“I could see that I was not the mind . . ."

Colleen: So you were observing the mind . . . 

Matthew: For the first time I went into a very deep witness state. Yep. Observing the mind and for hours on end, my energy had ignited enough to where I could stay steady in watchfulness of the mind. And when that happens, it's like a flashlight turning onto a snake. And it slowly, it starts to become a rope, actually, because you start to see what it is. So instead of this kind of fear-based way of thinking and isolating, trying, needing to understand, it starts to expand.

You start to see the mind for what it is. You start to allow it. And consciousness then can expand outside the parameters of your own ideas of reality.  

Colleen: Yeah. I love that metaphor. The flashlight on the snake, because that's sounds what was happening when you came back from your first trip to India and started sharing with your friends. You were putting the flashlight on the snake.  

Matthew: I think so, inadvertently though. Yeah.

Colleen: It was not intentional to try to hurt the snake.  

Matthew: That's true. Yeah, I never really thought about it like that, but that is what was happening.  

Colleen: I know there are sacred texts that talk about, in terms of light and darkness, darkness cannot comprehend the light. 

And that, there is some connection there, some interplay. But I love that you are open enough even after these initial experiences of not being understood and maybe experiencing some rejection and et cetera, judgment--a lot of judgment. A And yet you went back for more of what gave you life and has kept bringing that life back as who you are in all these situations that you were born into-- your family your friends, where you were living, et cetera. 

Matthew:  Yes, thank you. Like I said, after that first experience on the beach, I finally had a vision. So from a young age, I was watching my parents, I was watching my aunts and uncles, I was watching what the teachers were telling me--and none of it really grabbed me like, why are you actually doing what you're doing?

I don't see really any of you happy, for one thing. I see a lot of people caught up in responsibility, and attempting to create more security for themselves and their life and their 401k, their retirement, your college fund--all these things that for me was just throwing more and more rocks in my backpack every time I thought about engaging in them. So once I had that experience, and then when I went in and met my teacher, my guru in India after that first experience. This is all that had ever literally made sense to me-- as far as why we're here. Everything else was meaningless.

Colleen: Like coming home. This is some transitory place; when you experience being where this is how it is, you're home,   And now you're home wherever you are.

To have that initial experience that, no you weren't crazy. You weren't insane for not feeling okay with the insanity

Matthew:  Yeah,  I'm grateful because I was stubborn enough to not give in to it.  You know, I did—here and there where I had to. School was a prison for me, like literally. Getting up every morning... I wasn’t someone who just dropped out and ran off--I made myself go. But then, once I was out of high school, I couldn’t not allow my spirit to follow its guidance.

Colleen: I wonder if there are people listening to this conversation who are currently feeling like that—like the old Wizard of Oz, where everything was black and white and dull and drabby, la-di-da—and then she pops out and there’s technicolor and sparkles.

Matthew: Oh wow, that’s a perfect metaphor.

Colleen: And that is, fortunately, what we’ve never really been disconnected from.

I love what you were saying before about the mind—that it’s our identification with the mind as who we are, and especially that “this is my mind,” that just aggravates this inner despair that we all have—until we don’t. When we experience that there are no separations...

Matthew: Yes.

Colleen: Then we’re stepping into that technicolor—of life.

Matthew: Yes, exactly.

In India Matthew Hara experienced learning how to see the mind for what it is.

Matthew: I would love to share a little bit more on this topic because this is the meat of it. So I had that first big experience in India where I had this gap—I was seeing the mind for what it was. And literally, consciousness, intelligence, grace—however you want to call it—it showed me all the way back to when I first started getting identified with the mind.

And it went all the way back to Disney cartoons, actually—straight into Mickey Mouse. That was the last scene I saw. I think it was... is it Anastasia or Fantasia or whatever it’s called? Where he’s got the wand and he’s dreaming everything?

And so I watched the mind’s mechanism for so long. It went all the way back to there. All of a sudden, I’m watching this scene with Mickey Mouse and the wand. It was a full mystical experience by that point. I’m watching it and just—ah, wow. This is what the mind is. And I realized I was trapped in this.

It started back there, where I started to identify with myself and the external world—right? Individual and other. And then it popped. All of a sudden, everything went to pure silence.

And such an interesting thing occurred. Each of us—the participants there—had a monk who was our personal guide. Someone we could go to, lean on, get support, ask questions.

He literally walked in the moment after that happened—after I’d been in silence for about three seconds. It felt like some kind of huge breakthrough. He came in the door right away and said, “It’s time to go for a walk, Matthew.” And it was such a trip. It’s like he’d been watching my process that whole time.

I’d been lying in my bed in Shavasana for about three or four hours at that point. “Let’s take a walk, Matthew.” So we go outside. It’s beautiful in South India at that time of year—very jungly.

All of a sudden, I’m witnessing everything: the trees, the jungle sounds—everything is so rich, so full. Because now the senses are online.

When those senses are online, we’re experiencing life for what it is—in the moment—without the interpretation of the mind. Life is so fulfilling. Just to take a walk, to look at a tree, to take a breath—moment by moment through the senses.

So I’m having this experience really powerfully. He says, “Do you want to get something to eat at the cafeteria?” And I was actually really hungry by that point. I said, “Sure.” So we go. He says, “Go get some watermelon.”

I go get some watermelon. I sit down. I’m eating it. Best watermelon ever. My senses are on fire. Watermelon is so good in South India. I’m sitting there for 10 minutes enjoying it.

Then a friend from Scandinavia—who I’d met—walks into the cafeteria. I’m in there alone at that point. And I’m in such a state that when I put my attention on him, I can literally see exactly what his mind is doing, what his thoughts are saying.

And one of the biggest lessons of my life happened. I could see, as he walked into the cafeteria, he identified for a second where his body was, where the food was. Then he started walking toward the food. He got to the watermelon dish—it was empty, because I’d taken all the watermelon at that point. And the story in his mind was like, “Oh, it’s empty.” And he started to suffer.

So I’m watching all of this happen in his mind. It was so clear to me that the baseline of why we suffer is any moment we identify with the mind’s interpretation. The moment he identified, “The bowl is empty. I don’t get watermelon,” he started suffering.

And that was such a lesson. Because I could see—all of a sudden—it’s identifying with anything that gets in the way of experiencing life for what it is, in the moment.

Colleen: Is that the same as attachment to outcome?

Matthew: It’s the same thing. Yeah, same thing. And I’m not saying that’s a bad thing. This is the mind. This is how we’re designed. But I was just so clear—he started suffering.

And of course I was like, “Oh wow.” I had some more watermelon on my plate. I said, “Hey brother, I have some watermelon. Come.” And he got so happy. And that’s what we did. This is our life. We go through these ups and downs—“Oh, I got what I want.” And then the next need of the body or desire or life or whatever.

But it was so clear to me: the moment we start suffering is when we get attached to a story and we identify for a moment. But what’s happening in the body—I could literally see that his body was functioning automatically. Breathing was happening automatically. All life was so connected. But the moment we identify with any interpretation of life, we create a separate entity.

“When we’re aligned with truth, we’re connected. If we’re resisting the truth, we’re cut off."

Colleen: And I know you’ve spoken and written about the concept of non-resistance. Hearing what you’re saying—it’s like, no matter who we are, our calling is to non-resistance. But not in a way that says, “Oh, I’m going to surrender and now I’ll be tortured and suffer,” which is what the mind tells me. “If you don’t resist, they’re going to walk all over you.” Because maybe I have had some of those experiences.

Matthew: Totally.

Colleen: But I can just really experience—like you were describing—the presence in the moment, and knowing not only is all well, all is beyond words: amazing and wonderful.

And in that moment—I am free to not have to resist. I have a choice. I can resist or not resist. In that moment of being and knowing—being part of... what I don’t know how to articulate—I would just say: the truth.

Matthew: Yeah. It’s beyond.

“This is one of the biggest areas that I feel like we lack in our modern educating of the human being: . . . How do we engage in the internal world? . . ."

Colleen: Then non-resistance is fine. It’s not a problem.

Matthew: Exactly. And I think it’s super important. This is one of the biggest areas that I feel like we lack in our modern educating of the human being—which the East has really focused on: How do we engage in the internal world? And how do we engage in the external world? What are the different modalities that we need to learn? What are the different strategic ways of traversing those worlds? Because they’re very different.

In the internal world, we have to learn how to experience life, which is dependent on whether we’re resisting our experience or not. The internal world is crucial. We must cultivate the ability to not resist what’s happening. Therefore, we’re then connected to truth, which connects us to our body, which connects us to higher consciousness. When we’re aligned with truth, we’re connected. If we’re resisting the truth, we’re cut off.

But for the external world, we do need to learn how to say yes and when to say no. The no’s are as important as the yes’s. So it’s very important that we learn about those worlds.

Colleen: For me, what comes to mind right now is the watermelon story. Our lives are just filled with these little stories. That’s a perfect illustration.

We can just be in this state of constant surrender. That’s the word that’s been really relevant to me lately: surrender. So in a constant surrender and knowing the “I Am that I Am,” I don’t have to say, “Oh, this person needs this—shall I give it to them?” I don’t have to go through that process. I can just let my heart flow and move however is best for me to move in that moment. I’m both guided and supported—and led at the same time.

It’s really... I guess there are all kinds of ways to describe that flow—Life living us in some way.

Matthew: Yeah. And you said it also—heart. The heart flow. It’s the heart’s intelligence. Exactly. When we step out of the mind’s mode, the heart comes online. And the heart is connected with higher intelligence, which is connected with everything and everyone. Then it can flow more serendipitously.

Colleen: Just lead.

Matthew: Yeah.

Colleen: You say the first part, I’ll say the second.

Matthew: Perfect. Harmoniously. It’s in alignment with that which is bigger.

Colleen: Yeah. And that is when—boom—we’re back in Wonderland.

Matthew: Yeah. We’re connected to that.

Colleen: And the...

Matthew: Magic.

Colleen: What’s the last word you said?

Matthew: To the magic.

Colleen: When the heart’s online—life is magic. It really is. And it was designed to be that way. “As above, so below”—that is true when the heart’s online. It’s not true when we’re living through the frameworks of the mind, because then we’re only seeing yes and no’s, good and bad, right and wrong, left and right. Binary.

This is relevant to me, and I guess it’ll be perpetual until I go somewhere else. I find I have to use my brain a lot. Right now I’m working on putting things together to launch this podcast. And so I have to learn video editing and all kinds of technical things. The little surface part of me says, “Just go get a root canal instead.” That’s not appealing at all.

However, I say to that part, “Oh wait a minute, okay. Your voice has been heard, and you can go to this corner. You can still hang out, but you are not what my heart is hearing right now.”

It’s such an interesting journey, isn’t it? I’m finding that I shut down my awareness too easily—on what’s going on in my body. I’m just rediscovering that my body, including my heart—my heart physical and my heart beyond physical—is on board to help me out. If I only listen.

I have a hard time getting still. And so I appreciate your yoga practice, for instance. You mentioned that we each are so unique. So we find those ways that help us strategize how to stay in this connection. We’re always in connection—but not to be obstacled by the illusions.

Matthew: Yes. Yeah. Beautifully put.

Colleen: I don’t know if “obstacled” is a word.

Matthew: I think that was perfectly clear to me. I thought you expressed that well.

Colleen: Oh, thanks. So with yoga, I start every day with a morning sunrise salutation. Of course, I’ve customized that with other practices that have been meaningful for me. But beyond that, I don’t have a whole lot of experience in yoga.

My best friend, who passed a couple of years back, used to talk with me about that. She knew me really well. She would say, “As that is for you, yoga is for me.” And so I knew that was very clearing for her—and obviously for you as well.

Could you describe that a little, and your journey with yoga?

Yoga and Spiritual Growth

Matthew: Sure. So I was always super athletic, as I mentioned, from when I was a kid, and I was also very connected to nature.

I was a snowboarder, a surfer, a backpacker. My family used to hike a lot. So being in the body was something I was used to from a young age. It probably got me through my childhood—being able to play sports, be outside, and stay healthy—even though I was ravaging myself with substances.

But the body was still strong and healthy and very capable. I think yoga acted as one of the main initial bridges for me—a spiritual practice that I could really apply in my life. And of course, many of us start with the concept of yoga as just postures, right? We learn sun salutations, go to some classes, try hot yoga, this, that, and the other.

“. . . it’s actually a technology—from the densest levels of physicality to the subtlest levels of consciousness."

This technology is powerful. It’s so intelligently designed when you learn the full spectrum of it.

Once I started going to India and learning about different branches of yoga, visiting traditions, diving deep—I started to see that yoga is so much bigger than that. Yes, my body was healthy and yoga was helping me get more flexible and strong, but it’s actually a technology—from the densest levels of physicality to the subtlest levels of consciousness.

“I just knew I was on the path to freedom . . . And if I was going to do that, I knew I was taking my body with me. . ."

This technology is powerful. It’s so intelligently designed when you learn the full spectrum of it.

So I just knew—this is critical for me to apply every single day because of where I’m going. I didn’t know what that was going to look like, I just knew I was on the path to freedom. That’s all I cared about. And if I was going to do that, I knew I was taking my body with me. My body needed to be at a certain level.

“It’s actually a process of going through our past “filing cabinets,” which are all stored in the body."

The monks over there—we’d have long conversations about this. The body, if it can’t hold a vibration, it’s like a power plug—you’ll blow a breaker. And because I wanted such a state of freedom, I knew I had to be able to hold that kind of charge. That made sense to me. Basic, practical sense.

I think this is critical—and often overlooked—especially in the portrayal of yoga in the West. It’s mostly glamorized on a surface level. Yes, it’s beneficial. It helps people feel good. But if we approach it with the intention that our consciousness stay at a higher level, maintain a higher frequency—gosh, that gives us even more drive to stay with it. And it’s not just that.

It’s actually a process of going through our past “filing cabinets,” which are all stored in the body. So yoga is a pathway for that—if used that way.

“Yoga certifications are given way too quickly. There are too many teachers who haven’t deeply applied this science in their own body and being—for transformation—and to truly honor this great lineage."

It’s just been a huge part of my path. I’m passionate about bringing more light to it—especially for Westerners—because I feel like it’s mostly poorly portrayed and not generally used for its full potential. Yoga certifications are given way too quickly. There are too many teachers who haven’t deeply applied this science in their own body and being—for transformation—and to truly honor this great lineage.

Colleen: I’ve heard that from another yoga teacher in Southern California as well. I haven’t met him in person, but we had a deep Zoom conversation a few months back. He said that many people would be surprised that colonialism is part of westernized yoga.

And sadly, I wasn’t shocked. Colonialism seems to leech into so many aspects of everything. That energy of “got to have it, got to control it.”

Matthew: Yeah.

Colleen: But from what you just shared, the wisdom of the body can come through so beautifully and clearly through intentional practice.

It’s not a practice I’ve gone very far with, but even in just a few minutes each morning, I’m starting to tune in more and more to the sacredness of being in the body. There’s something about that.

We get that concept in Christianity, right? The incarnation of Christ—the son of God, in a body. And I love Jesus.

But the concept of non-duality is one of the hardest things I’ve experienced as a Christ follower—because I wasn’t taught Christianity that way. I was taught the opposite. That kind of perspective would be considered blasphemous.

In fact, it took me about a year and a half—going out at dawn or pre-dawn—working this out in my mind and in my being.

And finally, I said, “Okay, I’m going for it. I’ve got to make the shift.”

Matthew: Yeah.

Colleen: And I said, “If I die...”—because I knew if it wasn’t right, I would be committing blasphemy. But I was shown very clearly in that moment—and in a vision, actually—that no, as in the Sanskrit chant: “I am in the divine, and the divine is in me.”

In my understanding, I came to experience the truth of that. And when I have my little yoga time, I feel that in my body.

Matthew: Yeah.

Colleen: When I’m stretching and moving, sometimes I feel, “Oh, it’s best to move this way today and not that way. I need to stay here longer. What’s happening here?”

“Oh wow, my heart was so closed—it needs to be open. So I’m going to stay here longer.”

“Oh, I need to breathe. I need to breathe deeper.”

And sometimes emotions come out.

Matthew: Absolutely.

Colleen: And as long as I don’t judge the emotions, they feel good. If I judge them, I go into that suffering place.

Matthew: Yes.

Colleen: This podcast you’re now speaking on—the idea for it germinated in that quiet moment with my body was just trying to calm down the chatter. I’m a little chatterbox. But I showed up—just being still. No agenda except: I need to be in my body.

Certain moves help me. “Oh, there’s my foot. My left toe joint is feeling a little crotchety today. Maybe I need to move this way so it doesn’t hurt when I walk.”

Little things like that. They seem so simple—not very impressive to my mind, honestly.

My mind is like, “Are you in pre-kindergarten or something? Come on.”

“Tuning into your own embodiment, meeting yourself where you are, deeply listening from that place. That is the path of yoga. And through that, an intelligent evolution happens within the body."

Matthew: No, but that’s it though. That’s how I often see yoga mis-portrayed here. You go to a class, and they take you through 30 postures in an hour.

Often people don’t initially like my classes—because we might do seven postures in an hour and a half. But it’s that tuning into your own embodiment, meeting yourself where you are, deeply listening from that place.

That is the path of yoga. And through that, an intelligent evolution happens within the body. We can tune into the heart, and an evolutionary process unfolds.

That’s the broad path—at least from my perspective—of what yoga is all about. And it doesn’t have to be complicated. It doesn’t have to be rigorous.

It’s like going overly feminine—flexibility—and lacking masculine stability. Or vice versa.

“If you don’t balance flexibility with strength, then you don’t build balanced action."

Matthew Hara: balanced action

It doesn’t have to hurt.

In fact, a lot of people get injured after doing yoga—especially over a number of years in an imbalanced way. All of a sudden, they become too flexible because they didn’t cultivate the other half—stability and strength.

There’s this idea that yoga is about flexibility. It’s not. That’s one aspect. But if you don’t balance flexibility with strength, then you don’t build balanced action.

It’s like going overly feminine—flexibility—and lacking masculine stability. Or vice versa. Males generally need more feminine energy—more flexibility. But it’s the balance of action that yoga is about.

This intelligent, balanced action—while embodied—brings online higher consciousness more frequently. It’s about an embodiment practice.

EPILOGUE:

Thank you for joining us for Come Home to the Body, part two of the We Be the Change series with Matthew Hara: Individuality and Universality.

I hope this brought a real richness to you in savoring the question: How can I trust my body’s wisdom over my mind’s story?

Make sure to see more of Matthew Hara's content and offerings--including journaling prompts and supportive resources on the Bonus Content page at Songrise.LIVE and on his website at MatthewHara.com

If you'd like to explore continuing this conversation with friends, you might consider a "Continuing the Conversation" SuppGroup. 

Thanks for listening and please share your thoughts! Again, if you'd like to hear the above conversation as a podcast episode, simply click HERE.

P.S. Your FREE eGuide, Out of Your Mind, Into Your Light awaits you at the bottom of each page at SongRise.LIVE

Aloha and Mahalo 🌺

Colleen Akiko